"I really can’t go wrong either way, but the main question is do you all think the dual SVS’s will outperform dual Klipsch THX’s."

I thought it might make good basic discussion. Nothing new, but subs/bass is so emotional a subject for many. It is an area that is still shrouded in mystery and nuance with decisions often being made emotionally rather than with any scientific methodology as is used in the professional world.

Good subs don’t become obsolete in the manner suggested in a post in that thread. Comparing the Klipsch THX and SVS (or other similar) subs models is not easy. It is very easy to define and predict the performance of the Klipsch KW-120-THX subs with their amp (or equivalent) because of their THX Ultra2 certification. When both subs are co-located, they will deliver a minimum 105dB with 10dB of headroom at the listening area in rooms around 6000 cubic feet in volume at very low distortion. They are anechoically flat +/-3dB from 20Hz-200Hz.

Will the SVS or other products achieve that? It is very tough to determine that. If you are a home theater designer (or enthusiast), you have to go find the answer to that. It’s not easy to find.

Most subwoofer designers are putting their engineering efforts into shrinking the footprint and extending low frequency response. This pursuit ultimately results in sacrificing output capability for size and frequency extension.

How low is low enough? Many folks in professional sound (cinema, music, and studio) will make the case that subwoofers in small rooms (residential sized rooms) do not need to be anechoically flat to 20 Hz; that 35 Hz is perfectly adequate for subwoofers in small rooms because there is a ton of room gain below 35Hz in small rooms anyway. Further, these same folks say that the only thing that extra extension gets you is a rise in the deep LF response that is not sonically comparable to anything found in the cinema, live music, or, to a certain degree, studio world. It is also extremely difficult to get rid of it with EQ and filtering. Remember anechoic and acoustic response are different animals. Good anechoic response is a starting place, but small room acoustics are going to play a powerful role.

High performance subs for residential size rooms need to be anechoically flat +/-3dB from 35Hz to 120Hz and capable of output at Reference level (0dBFS) at your listening area in whatever size room you have. The bigger the room, the bigger the physical, electronic, and financial challenge. We’ll take flat anechoic response to 20Hz, but EQ will absolutely be necessary to tame it to be acoustically flat in small rooms.

The acoustic basics of low frequency response in small rooms will never change. Room proportions, location of the sub(s) in a location(s) that will result in reasonable smoothness at your listening location, and broadband absorption to reduce reverberation times (ringing), then bass management and very good EQ are the formula to success. Whether the sub is a design that is 7 years old like the Klipsch THX U2 or a new SVS (or whoever) does not really matter. What matters is whether it can deliver to meet the performance specs. If and when they do, my response to the sound will be emotional.

I would love to see some manufacturer reps join in comment on this subject. We really need manufacturers of powered subs to provide some metric (as THX has done) for us to use in predicting sub performance with regards to objective criteria. If it is a strongly built passive sub, then if we know its sensitivity, its impedence, and its anechoic FR, we can easily choose an amp that will result in meeting the output specs. With powered subs, it seems to be a guessing game.

Cheers

Not to get everyone too excited but my loving brother just ordered a Epik Empire today(26 Jan 2010). He has agreed to have it drop shipped to my house first to do a quick review. I own an MFW and a friend owns the Rythmic Audio 15in Servo Sub. I plan on doing a 3 way review, possibly 4, if another friend brings over his DIY dual 15in with 1000watt amp.

Just wanted to start this thread as a place holder for results.

Theater info:
X-Statik Mains
X-Voce Center
X-MTM rears
MFW sub
Onkyo Pro SC-886P Preamp
Emotiva LPA-1 Power amp
PS3, Oppo 980h, and squeezebox sources.

Theater is fully treated with bass traps, first reflection points, and heavy velvet drapes and curtains.

Pics and measurements to follow, It might be a week before the Empire arrives though.

Update: 29 Jan 2010
Just realized that my friend’s Rythmic is the 12in servo guy so probably wont be doing a direct comparo.

Update: 03 Feb 2010
Quick impressions:

1) If you think the MFW is a beast, think again. Holy cow! The Empire is SOLID. That thing is built like a tank.

2) Finish on MFW is much more classy. I prefer both the painted satin black and the veneered MFW finished to the plastic coating veneer the Empire has. Dont get me wrong. It’s nice but side by side the MFW wins the fashion show.

3) Nearly identical footprint to the MFW. If you have the space for one you then you’ll have the space for the other.

4) Definitely an sonic difference between the two. Initially I had the Empire running hotter than the MFW so I had to pull out my SPL meter to get them back to a level playing field. Too early to crown a winner. Both good, just different.

5) Disclaimer: 2 Channel music listening only and about 1hr review time. Once a quick and dirty SPL leveling was done. MFW might be digging a bit deeper and have more output. Empire could be tighter and have better resolution between frequencies. Even after SPL leveling the MFW just seems like it has more "umph" and kick. I have a feeling that might just be gain related. I only leveled the subs with my Preamp’s built in test tone. Just dailed in the gain to the same level that my MFW has been at since I got my room all dialed in.

6) First impression is that Empire might be a better sub for music and audio while the MFW might be a better Home theater/Movie sub. This is only first impression and given more time my thoughts and feelings could easily change. Neither is "head and shoulders" better than the other. If I had to choose between ONLY one of them right now I wouldn’t know which to choose based on performance.

7) Getting that sucker out of the box without destroying it was a PITA. With my MFW, I just cut open the side and slid it out. This was much more difficult. Getting it upstairs by myself was a little stressful too! I recommend getting assistance if you can.

Just thought I’d get a first impression out there.

Update: 08 Feb 2010
Did a some more critical listening in 2 channel mode over the weekend. I pulled out my favorite bass test song, Poem of Chinese Drums off of an older Burmester demo CD and several other really good bass test tracks. If you are not familiar with the Chinese drum track it is an amazing recording with some real dynamics.

I had a friend over to accompany me in my listening and the results were interesting. The Empire is able to resolve notes quite a bit better than the MFW below the 60hz crossover I have set for my X-statiks. The notes are just a hair cleaner and tighter.

Level is still a bit of an issue. I feel each have a slight peak in my room but at different frequencies. I’ll have to take some measurements of each. I’ll post those as soon as I can.

Measurements will tell the truth but it was a toss up with who was the top performer in the lowest of lows. Playing some of my favorite organ pieces I felt the MFW was more realistic and captured the resonating pipes better than the Empire. My friend, however, thought the Empire went lower although it had less output (kinda contradictory).

The music was selected for the sole purpose of exercising the the frequencies the MFW and Empire do best. The outcome of the listening was unanimous and inconclusive at the same time. I’ll explain.

We both agreed that the Empire was able to resolve each frequency or note better than the MFW and that the Empire was cleaner and tighter. We, however, disagreed on our overall preferred sub. My friend preferred the Empire for the reasons that we agreed upon. I actually preferred the MFW for a couple other reasons. Even though the Empire bested the MFW in cleanness and resolution, I felt the MFW integrated with the x-statiks much better. It was less obvious that a sub was in the room playing the low frequencies. If you did not see the large black boxes you would have thought it was the x-statiks playing full range. The bass sounded like it was coming from them and not a separate sub woofer. I could identify the Empire playing while the MFW was much more seamless. Because of this seamless integration I felt the MFW was much more natural and enjoyable to listen too. Granted this is my preference and my friend would have chosen the Empire.

In my reality, the MFW is the winner up to this point. Given the Empire has two 15in drivers and nearly twice the power plus a higher price tag, the MFW shines as the "bang for you buck" winner too.

Had my friend written this review, the winner would have been reversed. He would have said the Empire is a killer deal for its performance too. I think in his reality the Empire is a bit more refined than the MFW.

The subs are different, audibly different. It is not huge yet it is not subtle either. If you are without a "good" sub buy one and be happy, you’ll never know what your missing as they will both blow most subs away in sound quality, build quality and output quantity. They both have plenty of headroom in my room as the gain is not even to the half way point.

If you have a good sub then it will be up to you to decide which you prefer.

I just want to give props to MLS as he continues to build amazing performers at unbeatable prices. Thanks!!!!!

I’ll be keeping my MFW and my brother will be getting an awesome sub that blow his mind. This is his first quallity sub as his current one is around the level of a HTIB sub. Given I have seen that there are gains that could be made to the MFW, I’ll be ordering either MLS’s hotrod kit or Kevin’s/Seaton’s Turbo upgrade. It is yet to be decided, but given MLS track record in the price/performance category his will be tough to beat in value!

I hope to get some measurements posted soon!

Update: Friend’s Corrected comments
1) I actually did agree that the MFW seemed to go lower

2) I also agree that the MFW seemed more integrated (i.e. the bass seemed to be coming from the X-statics, not from behind me). I wonder, though, if that had anything to do with the fact that the Empire’s woofers were facing 90° off of the MFW? (Maybe we should have rotated the Empire 90° just to see?)

P.S. We should have lugged them both downstairs to compare to the LS-6’s. I’m thinking neither could match the 16-woofer bass from the big boys!

I’ve recently purchased a Onkyo HT-RC160 receiver and a set of Energy Take Classic 5.0 speakers. Next stop, subwooferville. I have $150 - $200 to spend on a subwoofer, but the lower (price), the better. My room is 12′ in width, 12′ in length, 8′ in height. I will probably be using this for 50% TV/HT, 30% gaming, 20% music.

A member of this forum (great guy) suggested I build one if I have some DIY skills. While I am sort of good with my hands, I would rather just buy one. But if the specs of the custom one are that much better, I’d probably be willing to do that - I might have someone who can help me too. The shipping is kinda high on the enclosure too. $36 to ship a $44 object (b-stock, white).

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. I live in NYC if that helps any.

Also, if I’m not going to use the sub to its full potential, does that mean I should get a cheaper one, or is there another reason to get a higher priced one?

Thank you

1. My budget is $400, but lower is always better. If I wait a month I can increase that budget to $700, but that’s a lot more than I ever intended to spend. I’d prefer to keep it under $400 unless there is an amazingly huge difference between the quality of the subs in that price range.

2. For subwoofer dimensions, the absolute maximum limits would be probably be about 20"x20" WxD (height doesn’t matter). Preferred maximum limits would be 15"x15" WxD (height under 2 ft). The size will change the location I place the sub, that’s all. I would prefer the better subwoofer sound-wise. Also, if absolutely necessary I may be able to make room for a slightly bigger sub, but would prefer not to.

3. For my room dimensions, my current room is about 1000 cubic feet (~12×10x8 LWH). However, I would expect this sub to moved to a more mid-sized room (4000-5000 cu ft) within the next 5 years.

4. The sub use will be split about evenly between music (varies a lot, but mainly trance, pop, and hardcore I guess), gaming, and TV/movies.

5. I typically listen at fairly low to moderate levels, but I want the extra power there if I ever need it (I do occasionally like to turn the volume up).

6. Appearance isn’t of much consequence. I’d prefer black, and probably not glossy (although I will get glossy if the sound is worth it).

7. Getting the sub early is not a huge priority, I am not subwoofer-less. I would prefer it sooner but am willing to wait if it’s worth it for a specific sub (or price!).

I’ve been reading up and searching for the past few days and have seen several options, but there’s a lot of information and a lot of subwoofers out there. I’m having a hard time trying to figure out what would be best.

I’m looking for good extension, I’d prefer it if the subwoofer has good response at 20-25 Hz.
I’m also looking for a sub that is not only higher quality (obviously) than my current sub, but more powerful. I would prefer there to be an impact from the bass, not just a rumble (yeah I have no idea how to term that).
My uncle has an impressive Velodyne sub (I forget the model but he said it had an MSRP of $3000, about 1-2 years ago), and it was just amazing. Obviously I can’t get exactly that in my price range, but I would prefer the best I can get.

A few subs I’ve been hearing thrown around are the:
Cadence CSX-12/15
Energy ESW-V10
PA-120
VK-12
eD A3 - 300/350

I’m more than open to other suggestions as well (as of my posting tonight I’m leaning towards the CSX-15, but that could easily change…).

I am also not opposed to buying a used subwoofer.

Thanks!

One other quick question… I’m surprised that most subwoofers don’t list the impedance. Isn’t a subwoofer with a 2/4 ohm driver going to be better than one with an 8 ohm driver? Does the impedance really not matter that much?

Back in April I had a subwoofer meet at my house and had several subwoofers and forum members in attendance. We weren’t let down by any subwoofer that was there. All the subs had their place in the market anywhere from a smaller Bic and Outlaw sub up into DIY stuff and then pro audio gear. The sub that really caught our attention was the Danley TH-50. This is a large tapped horn (TH) that is used in pro sound applications like live concerts or in commercial movie theaters. They use only 4 of them to power the low end of an IMAX theater. For those who aren’t familiar with Danley and how amazing their products are you may be thinking that these are huge multiple 18" or larger drivers in a single enclosure. Wrong. The TH-50 only has a single 15" driver. So an entire IMAX theater is driven with only 4 15" subs. A single of this subwoofer was pushing over 128 dB in my 4000+ cubic foot room and had an extremely clean distortion free sound. All the talk about how special that subwoofer was at the meet peaked some interest from the company’s designer Tom Danley. He e-mailed myself and another forum member Ricci asking how we would like to get involved with a subwoofer more geared to the performance of the TH-50 but with a few differences to make it more acceptable to us home theater bassheads. We told Tom that we’d really like the same output potential as the TH-50 but with greater extension and maybe in a different enclosure layout. After working for several months developing this and tons of emails back and forth Tom has given us the DTS-10. It’s a tapped horn subwoofer in a large enclosure that incorporates dual very well built 12" drivers. I say large enclosure because it is just that…very large. At around 23 cubic feet and somewhere between 250 and 300 lbs it’s something unlike the smaller subwoofers that are available now. You may be thinking to yourself "How do you get great performance out of only 2-12" drivers?". Well the magic lies in the enclosure. The tapped horn configuration can take certain drivers and work what seems like miracles in terms of output and distortion. This is a LARGE subwoofer so if you’re looking for something to hide behind a potted plant this is not for you. This subwoofer is comletely for the performance minded bass enthusiast who doesn’t mind a large box in the room. For performance I’ll move on to some measurements and comparisons.

The original thought for lower extension for us was to shoot for 15 hz for a lower end "knee" where the response drops off. Tom gave us 11 hz. That was more than we asked and I’m glad that he could deliver that extra little bit of extension. Here is a response graph measured outdoors at 1 meter with 1 watt of power to give an idea of it’s extension and also how efficient it is over the frequency range.

He ok’d us to start talking about the sub in a DIY kit version and has had them available for a few weeks now. Ricci and I have received and assembled prototypes of the kits and neither of us has been disappointed in the least bit. I was the first to get the kit assembled and Ricci got his done last week. He has done several measurements in his room and more importantly he’s done some comparisons between some of his subs and the DTS-10. Here’s his post about that.

The DTS-10 is now available in a finished non DIY version that can be purchased with or without amplification. It’s dimensions are 60"x44"x16". It has multiple placement options one of which can be used as a riser for a sofa. I’m waiting on a MSRP of the finished version from the guys at Danley Sound Labs so as soon as I hear something I’ll let you guys know. If anyone has any questions I’ll do my best to answer and several of the guys from Danley including Tom Danley himself will jump in the conversation from time to time.

I’m looking for a subwoofer that will complement my system primarily for good musical performance (for the price anyway), HT duties are completely secondary. I could really use some help.

My speakers: Axiom M22 Bookshelf Speakers.. I’m only going to be running a 2.1 system for a while off a Denon 1610 receiver. 5.1 will come later

Budget: Absolute maximum $600US, the 2 bookshelves from Axiom are going to run me $724Cdn (~ $668US) so I believe my sub budget is generous enough? I don’t want to cheap out here but I don’t think I want to spend more than the speakers, plus I’ll be limited to volume in an appartment anyway.

Usage: Primarily music, I listen to a lot of electronica (House, DnB etc..) and also some good ol RocknRoll.. this is why I’m concerned about SQ, electronic music especially can have some detail, speed and extension in the lower end. I will probably use the sub for HT duties more often but for $600 I don’t expect miracles and musical fidelity is much more important and satisfying for me, with HT stuff I’ll be satisfied with much less.

Size requirements: I’m not sure if I care or not, I haven’t seen anything yet in my price range that would seem too big but smaller is always nicer for WAF.. but quality > WAF always.

Room: This is a bit tricky, I’m moving into an appartment in a couple months.. from what I’ve seen so far I guestimate no larger than 18′x14′x8′ and that’s probably very generous as this is Toronto and I’m not wealthy ;). Maybe 15′x12′ is more realistic. Another factor to consider is that this is an appartment and I’ll be limited as to the volumes I can put out before I get evicted, so maybe most awesome output at this price is not so necessary?

—————————

I hope not to get bashed for being dumb and asking for too much, this will be my first subwoofer purchase and I’m pretty green. I have done some reading, but nothing has jumped out at me yet like when I was picking out speakers. I don’t know how to qualify what I read in the specs to be able to figure out what I need on my own.

ATM this is my short list:

Paradigm DSP-3100

Reading the forums here I remember someone commenting on the DSP-3400 possibly being more suited to music than the sub they ended up getting, out of my budget though and possibly overkill for my needs so I’m thinking 3100 might be good?

Axiom Audio EP175 V2

Already getting Axiom speakers which are well regarded so I thought I should consider them, from specs though it seems like a lesser sub than the paradigm but may not be indicative of real SQ?

Both subs are easily available in Canada which is desireble but I’ll take any recommendations I can get.

If you’ve read through all this thank you very much.

I have a large basement. About 22′x30′. It’s a large rectangle.

Speakers used -

Fronts - Bic Acoustech HT-88s
Center - Bic Acoustech HT-65
Rears - Athena B1.2s
Sub - Speakercraft Bass X-10

At one end of the rectangle is my TV. I have the sub off to side. I was playing video games and I noticed my sub is pushing air. I can hear that, but it isn’t making bass notes. A perfect example is when the bomb blows up in "Angels and Demons". It’s supposed to be a very long and deep bass note, like a nuke going off, but it’s just pushing air. No sound is coming out of it. The sub is going crazy. I can see that, but it’s not making sound.

Is my basements shape at fault. Sub placement at fault? Should I move the sub to the middle of the room to the right of the couch? Not sure what to do here guys.

If I go in my room, the bass in some places, like a against a wall sounds better. It’s weird, I guess the sound waves reflect off my back wall a through that door in the first picture. I’m not sure.

Where do I place the sub for optimum performance?

EDIT: I just replayed that part of "angels and demons". I stood in the back of my room (first picture, door on the right). Sounded much better in there, clean and clear.

2nd EDIT: I think it’s just the air moving out of the vents. Maybe I shouldn’t of gotten a vented sub.

2. Size - Anything goes, I’m a single guy with my own house.

3. Room - My living room (where my speakers are) is totally open to almost a third of my 1700 sq ft house, I took a few measurements and I came up with about 8400 cubic feet total that the living room is open to. (There is a kitchen and dining room behind it, and above those is a game room, which is open and looks down into the living room. I can give more specifics or pictures if that will help).

4. Use - 85% HT / 15% Music

5. Habits - I like to watch movies at fairly high volumes, but what I’m really wanting here is to really feel the base in the movies. I’d really really like a sub that goes really really low

6. Appearance - Again, single guy, anything goes

7. Timeframe - I’d like to buy/order something in the new month, but I could hold off a short while if there is something better on the horizon for me.

My current hardware:
Yamaha RX-V1065
2 Polk Audio Monitor 70’s (front left and right)
1 Polk Audio CS20 (center)
2 Polk Audio Monitor 40’s (Surround left and right)
1 Klipsch Sub-10

While the sub-10 does a pretty good job of hitting hard, especially for the size of the room, I’m really want a sub that go lower. It doesn’t really seem to be going that low. I can get another one for $200, but I’m not really sure that it will help that much. They would hit harder, but they wont go any lower.

Would it be possible to add a second sub, one focused on the ultra low side of a subs range, and just dedicate the klipsch to the higher part of the frequency? Or is just better to run two subs, each with different strenghts?

Thanks for the help. I’ve really enjoyed reading and learning from the forum.
-Cold_B

My 9+ year old Onkyo TX-DS787 was working fine in my family room HT as 5.1 set-up, this past weekend I decided to take it outside and use it for my backyard theater as 5.1 outdoor set-up on the 9′ x 16′ screen.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt…7#post17126027

Situation - subwoofer pre-out broken, my fault :
When I was in the process of taking the Onkyo 787 from the family room to outside I thought all the cables were un-plugged, but in my rush to move equipment the subwoofer cable was left in and as I tugged on the amp realized that and un-plugged it.
Proceeded to do all outside hook-up, when testing each speaker level the sub would not work.
After fiddling with the sub cable when I pushed it hard and slightly off-center the sub would work, leading me to suspect possible damage on the board of solder connection.

Since it was late Friday note already, we watched the movie w/o LFE and no subwoofer.

For the Sunday night movie I used the high pass connection, connecting a 14/4ga lead from both RH/LH mains (separate +/- each channel of course) to the sub and turned the RH/LH to "Large" instead of "small, it definitely passed low freq to the sub. The sub has a selectable filter on it.

Monday morning, I tried to see if the RCA pre-out jack in the Onkyo 787 was damaged internally, but cannot get a good sight line to the board it is on.

I’m giving up fixing this myself, and don’t feel a 10 year old receiver is worth fixing for this.

Q1 to Onkyo/Audio experts:
Now putting this back in my family room HT set-up using the same strategy, RH/LH set to "Large" and then a "jumper" from RH/LH hi current to the sub will this work same as LFE did for the subwoofer pre-out to the subwoofer?

Or will I be missing some low freq effects?
Subwoofer detail backside.

Q2:
Setting the speakers to large, and passing freq 20hz to 80hz therefore, won’t damage my Atlantic technology sys 350’s LH/RH’s? I can’t see how it would but I’m no expert.
Their manual states:Frequency Response (±3dB) 80Hz – 20kHz (page 6).
http://www.atlantictechnology.com/Up…350_manual.pdf

Thx guys.

btw;
I’ve been thinking of upgrading the Onkyo 787, but until this issue it’s fine for the family room HT, I’d rather do this 1 year more and hold off spending some $$$’s if possible.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/…ETYP=ATTRIBUTE

It seems you can get quite a setup for potentially a lot less money. For example that highly reviewed Yamaha dual 18" enclosure is only about $700 for a unit. They quote about 132Db max. It is a heavy beast - 132 lbs so you can figure it is quality made. With a setup like this you could have four 18" subwoofers for the price of a single PC13 Ultra?!?!. The reviews on these things speak exceptionally of this product. One guy says you can hear them a half mile away, another says they used two of them in an auditorium of 550 people and even with that many people in that big an area the subs could still control your heartbeat, another guy says they push 1000 watts over the peak power rating and still can’t get them to distort, and another sound engineer says he bought two for his home theatre he was so impressed with them. I read these review statements off the buyer reviews on musician’s friend website.

Are these subs just not as "manerly" as something like the PC13-Ultra? or equivalent HSU offering? How would they compare? Are they not as flat/musical? I’d LOVE to demo all this kind of stuff side by side and see how it all falls out. My interest was sparked by a local mega church that my extended family all attends for Christmas pagents each year — whatever sub setup they have can really make it almost feel hard to breath. I remember a thunderstorm/earthquake demonstration during a pagent that had several thousand people in the audience. The bass was absolutely impressive.

Has anyone ever considered trying one of these types of quality PA subs for home theatre use? What are their drawbacks? For the price it seems like you get a LOT of sub?

BTW - I’m not promoting Yamaha subs over any other PA sub. I don’t know much at all about PA subs - hence the thread…just saw the price and the very positive reviews.